ML-KNIL

[henerius]

Oud blad- Jong blad.

welke kleuren gebruik ik daarvoor

[Beastherder]

Nederlandse kleuren uit de jaren 40-50?
Ik heb werkelijk geen flauw idee hoe dat er uit ziet

Denk niet dat Vallejo daar een kant-en-klaar kleurtje voor heeft, maar als je een foto hebt kan ik er s naar kijken wat je zou kunnen gebruiken

[kaleith]

volgens mij was dat een soort bruin-beige ofzo. Maar waarom niet een dagje naar bronbeek, dan weet je het zeker (hebben uitgebreide tentoonstelling, inclusief van die belachelijk grote indonesische kannonen)

[Beastherder]

Google to the Rescue




Zoiets?

Vallejo heeft een uitgebreide schakering aan militair groen
Afgaande naar deze foto's zou ik zeggen dat iets als 70.924 Russian Uniform of 70.893 US Dark Green aardig in de buurt zouden komen


Deze foto, van moderne re-enactors, lijkt een stuk feller groen, meer naar 70.922 Uniform Green of 70.850 Medium Olive
Kan het verschil zijn in licht omstandigheden, camera, of gewoon het verschil tussen nieuw/schoon uniform natuurlijk

[henerius]

Leuke uniformpjes... to the rescue he says.. van de regen in de drup.. dat wil ik vast ook wel weer hebben

Ik moet maar eens wat uitgebreider vragen stellen... oud blad /nieuw blad refereert aan dat kleuren schema van 1941 van de ML-KNIL. Daarbij moet ik wel zeggen dat er twee varianten van bestaan. De ene met door Nederlanders gemengde verfjes en een tweede is een variant waar de fabriek in USA de kleuren in een standaard kleuren patroon erop zette.. maar zoals je hieronder leest bestonden sommige kleurtjes toen nog niet in het wilde westen...

I am a model aircraft modeller and I am trying to model the Java campaign ML-KNIL fighters. I have problems at determining the exact colours for them.
For instance, both Brewster and Curtiss were camouflaged in "Jong Blad" (an Olive Drab colour) and "Oud Blad" (a Medium Green). They are usually assimilated to USAAC Olive Drab n 41 and Medium Green n 42. Problem is that, by the time the fighters were delivered to the Dutch, neither of them had been created, or at least were not in widespread use. According to Bob Archer, in the "Official US Army and Air Service Colour Guide", they were introduced by Bulletin N 41, dated September, 1940. If that's so, which were the colours?
Moreover, even if those were the colours, there is a contradiction with the usual interpretation of black and white photos. They show a disruptive camouflage, where small areas of the dark colors are painted on the lighter base. Problem is that most representations show Medium Green as the darker colour, when it should be Olive Drab, which was much darker than the common modeling paints show (much more so if the older Dark Olive Drab n 31 was used). Were the machines painted in Oud Blad with Jong Blad disruptive wavy camo?
Regarding specifically the Curtiss Fighters, the Hawk H.75A-7s, I understand that they were delivered in Silver finish (Aluminium Dope or Natural Metal? I guess the latter, for so were finished USAAC's P-36s) and were camouflaged in-theatre. Were the paints brought from the USA, or some replacement colours used (perhaps the Dark Brown usually seen on Fokkers?)
Thanks,



Wat erop neer komt ik ben op zoek naar de dichtstbijzijnde kleurtjes die op de bovenstaande lijken... valejo lijkt me prima.
Olive drab clour/ medium green clour... of dark olive drab / light olive drab... ik ben erg slecht met camo kleurtjes...
Ik heb uiteraard ook weer iemand gevonden die G1's maakt.. maar dat kleuren schema zie ik later wel weer.

ik heb Curtiss-Wright CW-21B/ Brewster Buffalo. De P36 is onderweg uit de USA. tja... leuke vliegtuigjes..

[Beastherder]

Oke, mijn fout om er meteen van uit te gaan dat het om de infantrie kleuren ging, maar voortaan wel de vragen wat duidelijker stellen, Henny

Brewster Buffalo's zijn cool

Dik en kort, ik hou van dat soort vliegtuigen
komt door de grote ster-motoren, zelfde vorm zie je in de Wildcat en Hellcat, en minder extreem in de P-47
Absolute kampioen is de Chaika





Maar dat terzijde



Voor de 'bruinige' kleur zou ik absoluut gaan voor Vallejo 70.887 Brown Violet, een lichte olive drab kleur

De groene kleur is lastiger, daar zou ik eerst wat kleuren voor willen vergelijken 'op het oog'
Eerste gok zou zijn 70.979 German Cam. Dark Green, maar die is misschien te donker. Yellow Olive of Reflective Green zijn misschien beter

Het punt is dat met dit soort minder bekende kleuren, die ter plaatse werden vermengd en vervolgens in de tropische zon stonden te bakken, NIEMAND de echte correcte kleur kan weten
Kijk bij het Vallejo verf-rek van Moenen en neem gewoon de kleuren die in jouw ogen het beste er uit zien

[henerius]

De buffalo is vooral er kewl omdat dat lelijke eendje in Nederlandse dienst de KI-43 van de Japanse legerluchtmacht 1 op 1 aankon. Daarbij moet ik wel zeggen om dat te bereiken moest wel de helft van de brandstof en de helft van de munitie thuis blijven... anders was de Buffalo gewoon een vette gans i.p.v. een jager...

[drava]

Ik blijf het gaaf vinden dat dit soort Q&A hier voorbij komen. Leer elke keer weer iets .

[henerius]

Hup.. lap met tekst

The negative judgment of the Brewster Buffalo is principally based on the certainly disastrous results of the RAF deployment of the fighter over Singapore and Malacca. As far as fighter pilot experience was concerned, the majority of the British pilots were not much better than their ML-KNIL colleagues, although their leaders usually had combat experience from the European theatre. But the British Brewsters were all fitted with the 1100 hp Cyclone G-105A – the majority of the ML-KNIL aircraft had 1200 hp – and they had also been fitted with the abovementioned additional equipment bringing the weight of the aircraft to 2955 kg, about 265 kg (10%) more than the NEI aircraft. Because of this the rate of climb (at sea level) was just 3000 ft/min, very poor compared to the 4700 ft/min of the NEI aircraft.

Harry Simons, who as a pilot for the Kon. Ned. Ind. Luchtvaart Mij. (KNILM) [the NEI civilian airline] was called up as a fighter pilot on the Buffalo, reported that he found the Buffalo a good aircraft provided it was fitted with the 1200 hp engine. He stated: “Although it may sound strange, I still remember the agile maneuverability of the Buffalo and in principle it was a very good aircraft as long as it had 1200 hp. The armament with two light and two heavy machineguns, was on the light side, no self sealing tanks, no armor plating for the pilot, a cumbersome radio installation and just a provisional installation for a reflector gun sight. The long and thin pipe structure for the gun sight was often used by mechanics to help themselves out of the cockpit and I have never flown an aircraft in which the gun sight was properly aligned and had well harmonized machine guns. This, coupled to the youthfulness of the pilots, would have made it impossible for any aircraft to perform better.”
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Nine Buffaloes of 2-Vl.G.-V that had been sent to Singapore when hostilities broke out, were there fitted with armored glass panels from written off British Buffaloes. The British were, however, impressed by the NEI pilots and their aircraft: “The Dutch pilots are magnificent as both men and flyers. (....) Their planes are much faster than ours and have self-sealing fuel tanks”, reported a mechanic of the New Zealand 488 Squadron who was loaned to the NEI squadron. Another New Zealander, Pilot Officer Pettit, who, for a short time, was assigned to the NEI Buffalo squadron in Singapore as a liaison officer: “(....) I can’t remember anything specific, except discussing with them the relative performance of their aircraft and ours. Our Buffalo’s had 1100 hp, while they had 1200 hp motor (.....) Their aircraft were slightly better than ours (.....) and I think that they knew a lot more about Buffaloes than we did and they were more likely to shoot down a Jap than we were, because, first they had a superior aircraft, and secondly, they were more experienced.” Even so, of the 12 pilots of this Afdeling, seven had graduated from the flying school in 1941 and two in 1940. Only the commander, Captain van Helsdingen (MWO3, graduated in 1934), Lieutenant-pilot Piet Hoyer (graduated Dec. 1938) and Sergeant-pilot Ad Voorbij (graduated Nov. 1938) had more than 18 months flying experience.
Captain Piet Tideman, commander of 3-Vl.G.V, gave in the recently published book “Buffaloes over Singapore” the following analysis of the Brewster fighter: “Coming to an evaluation of the Brewster fighter, especially compared to the Zero by which it was opposed - I think that my views are not directly in line with what is generally said about the Brewster. Generally it is said that that it was far inferior to the Zero. (.....) On the contrary, the Brewster was a good, sturdy, fast fighter with two half-inch armour-plates behind the seat. She would take a hell of a beating. My view is that our drawback during the fighter actions was not an inferior aeroplane, but that we had too few of them and also our armament was too little and too light. Only two .303’s and two .050’s. If only that could have been six or eight wing-mounted .50’s! However, I was happy with the Brewster. Another thing we have to bear in mind is that we were up against the crème de la crème of Japanese fighter pilots.”

To this must be added that with ‘six or eight’ .50’s with ammunition, the Buffalo would have been much heavier and the advantages compared to the British version would have been negated.

In a few instances RAF pilots flew with NEI Buffaloes, amongst others a former Buffalo pilot, now a Hurricane pilot, whose aircraft was being repaired and who, on 26 February 1942, made two flights in the B-395, the first ML-KNIL Buffalo. He wrote in his log book: “Lone top cover. These Dutch kites are great. Twin-row Cyclones.”. Of course these NEI Buffaloes did not have “twin-row”, ie 14 cylinder, 2000 hp engines. But it indicates to what extent this RAF pilot was impressed by the better results of the NEI version (whereby we assume that the original 1100 hp engine of B-395 had been replaced by the more powerful 1200 hp).

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In summary we can state that, in 1941-42, the Buffalo was obsolete as a fighter but that, as far as performance in comparison with the opponent, it was not such a disaster as has been suggested. The major difference was in the fact that the Japanese, as the attacking party, always had the advantage of the initiative. The NEI fighter pilots always had too short a notice to approach the enemy. The early warning system on Java was very rudimentary and mostly manned by inexperienced and ill prepared young volunteers. In addition the majority of the fighter pilots had limited flying experience and there had been no time to adequately train them in the tactics of air combat, air-to-air gunnery and other essential matters. As Harry Simons has already said: “with this all (….) not any aircraft could have given a better performance.”

Indeed the millionaire had his property protected by a little boy with a slingshot.